Thief: The Fan Made Project  
Last hour of the meeting. There were some talks afterwards, but this is the main part.
[21:00] <Sonance> So, are options -- 1) prequel, 2) sequel or 3) sequel with "flashback" sequences/missions to Garrett's past.
[21:00] <Jimlad> heck, we could go for something entirely different.
[21:00] <Jimlad> something not related in any way.
[21:00] <Sonance> But then it wouldn't be Thief, would it?
[21:00] <Avalon> I think option 1 is a bit ridiculous. Option 3 is a bit Tomb Raider 4-ish.
[21:01] <Jimlad> no, I mean you could use a different character, in the same environment.
[21:01] <MaD-SaM> my missions so far start way in the future, the main character is garretts daughter
[21:01] <Banshee_> Listen for a minute here. Basically, we can't work a story out in a committee. And the story can't be just a simple, two-phrase 'idea'. It will take a lot of work to do the story, and it must be done by an individual or a small group.
[21:01] <Jimlad> you could make it like opposing force in that respect.
[21:01] <Sonance> Yeah, that's why I was thinking of having this anonymous Keeer. He could be a new character, or reveal himself to be Garrett at the end.
[21:01] <Jimlad> that would work well.
[21:02] <Sonance> Okay, why don't we say that anyone who wants to create a plot go away for a week, devise something and share it with everyone else -- then we can take a vote.
[21:03] <Avalon> I don't believe a plot can be a thing that takes a mere week... I've written stories before, these things can take months for something as sophistacated (sp) as Thief.
[21:03] <Banshee_> You're right, Avalon. But a treatment for a story can be done in a week.
[21:03] <Sonance> Well, I've written novel synopses and stuff for major publishers in less than a week. It doesn't take more than a week to get a decent idea fleshed out on paper.
[21:04] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Koobze
[21:04] <Koobze> Whoa...
[21:04] <Koobze> time to transfer status :)
[21:04] <Sonance> BTW, is everyone on here fixed into GreyMouser's mailing list?
[21:04] <Pyro9> i think of ideas for a living, I and everyone can think of some cool ideas for thief 3 and next week we'll figure it all out.
[21:05] <Koobze> bam
[21:05] <Sonance> Ideas are two a penny -- it's shaping them and getting something concrete out of them.
[21:05] <Koobze> Mouser, you're now the founder :)
[21:05] <Banshee_> Ideas are dime a dozen. And idea can carry a mission, but not an entire campaign.
[21:05] <CrayMan> I don't think GreyMouser is doing this side of things.
[21:05] <Pyro9> sorry, gotta go
[21:06] <Sneaksie> he's doing the coding side of things
[21:06] *** theodora is now known as carnov
[21:06] <Kyra> .
[21:06] <GreyMouser> Yes.
[21:06] * MaD-SaM listens to some music
[21:06] *** Kyra sets mode: -o Kyra
[21:07] <readie> hi everyone
[21:07] <Avalon> Also, I think it would be a bit easier for the story development if an entire team worked on it. Not a big team, and not a bum-picked-off-the-streets team, either. Some very professionally picked people.
[21:07] <GreyMouser> I am a software project manager by trade, so thats what I am good at. Mission making is not my piece of cake, so  there is little I can contribute there.
[21:07] <Sonance> Right -- here's my suggestion. Anyone who want sto get involved with the plot side of things should all email me at We'll each go away for a week, come up with one or two ideas each for the campaign. They must be *fairly* detailed, but nothing epic just yet. We then take a vote on the best idea. Then we'll nominate someone to create the overall theme/plot for the campaign, then we can break it down into chunks (missions) and
[21:07] <carnov> hi
[21:07] <CrayMan> This will require a leader.
[21:07] <readie> I like sonance's idea
[21:08] <Sonance> Well, I don't mind co-ordinating the creative process.
[21:08] <GreyMouser> Sonance: looks like a good idea to me.
[21:08] <Banshee_> I second Sonance.
[21:08] <MaD-SaM> I think I'll pass on this hole idea. I'll get some of my own friends, im sure the hastle here is not worth it...
[21:08] <Sonance> Yeah, bye Mad... thanks for your suggestions. ;p
[21:09] <MaD-SaM> taffers
[21:09] <Nanoburn> To the end!
[21:09] <Sonance> If you can't work in a team Mad, then you're probably going to find it hard going.
[21:09] <MaD-SaM> we'll probably come out with a much better rusult too
[21:09] <MaD-SaM> not really
[21:09] <Sonance> We're not arguing, we're thrashing out the basics.
[21:09] <Banshee_> I'll doubt it, Sam, but wish you luck.
[21:10] <MaD-SaM> I know some people... most of the people in here are talentless
[21:10] <Nibal> Rome wasn't built in a day you know
[21:10] <MaD-SaM> anyway
[21:10] <MaD-SaM> cya all
[21:10] <Sonance> Loser.
[21:10] <CrayMan> that wasn't very nice
[21:11] <Banshee_> We won't miss him.
[21:11] <readie> he wasn't exactly helping
[21:11] <Sonance> He couldn't spell "whole" properly anyway.
[21:11] <CurePaz> Although to be fair, in terms of coding I AM talentless :)
[21:11] <Sonance> :)
[21:12] <Banshee_> One thing here we can do is list our creative resources. How many level builders do we have? How many who can do art? 
[21:12] <Sonance> GreyMouser, shall we use the existing mailing list for the purposes of plot creation, or shall we go somewhere else and simply coordinate with you later?
[21:12] <Mokkis> I can do levels, BUT, BUT....!!
[21:13] <Mokkis> Im in CoSaS team and Im gonna finish it first!
[21:13] <CurePaz> I dunno what I could do..... hopefully something though.
[21:13] <Sonance> Sure, I think we're all looking forward to CoSaS.
[21:13] <readie> I would be happy to take control of the sound + music side with anyone who wants to help altough this part would come much later on in development
[21:13] <Banshee_> Okay. Let's start with builders. How many of us here have done a level? 
[21:14] <readie> I've done a (pathetic) level
[21:14] <CurePaz> a level, or a GOOD level :)
[21:14] <Mokkis> Crc has done GREAT musical work for CoSaS, He's talented!
[21:14] <Nanoburn> I've done parts, never a completed one, nothing of notable quality.
[21:14] <Sonance> I've done Doom and Hexen levels! ;) I'm working on some UT stuff at the moment -- haven't really had time to play around with Dromed.
[21:14] <Jimlad> mokkis: where can I get hold of the music?
[21:14] <Mokkis> ...but CoSaS member as well. Hands full of work 
[21:14] <Avalon> I have not done a level, or rather, released one. But if that's how we're going to rate talent..
[21:15] <Banshee_> No, Avalon, it seems we can't do it that way.
[21:15] <Avalon> That's what I thought.
[21:15] <Jimlad> I work only on Quake stuff, but I learn rapidly.
[21:15] <Mokkis> I must go now
[21:15] <Sonance> What are we going to do first? Shall we get the plot/missions sorted out first and then find level designers to work on them, or should we get the level designers in to help with the fictional elements of the plot?
[21:15] <CurePaz> bye Mokkis :)
[21:15] <Mokkis> Cya, lets keep this thing up
[21:15] <Mokkis> :)
[21:15] <Kyra> Bye.
[21:16] <Banshee_> However, if we start doing a 15-mission campaign, we should have 15 builders. People who have the will to do it, have the knowledge or the will to learn.
[21:17] <Jimlad> I think that we should come up with an overall plot, and then leave the level designers to decide on the specifics.... it would give them far more freedom, and could still lead to a coherent plot.
[21:17] <GreyMouser> OK... Folks, If it is ok with you, then I'll put the log of this chat on a web page, so all those who weren't here can look it up. OK?
[21:17] <Sonance> Yep. What's the URL?
[21:17] <Jimlad> go do it.
[21:18] <GreyMouser> not sure yet, something like    and so... Lytha lets me put stuff there, so I think thats where I will put it
[21:19] <readie> Someone send an email to everyone else so they know
[21:19] <GreyMouser> Sonance, you coordinate this mission effort? What is the definitive mail adress for those who want to participate? 
[21:19] <Sonance> Are we all going to be using TTLG forums? I might post some stuff up on the editing forum later regarding plot considerations (and how best to co-ordinate the creative process for the fictional elements).
[21:19] <GreyMouser> And is there another URI for them?
[21:19] <Sonance>
[21:19] <Sonance> I'll probably put some stuff up on my site ( once things get going.
[21:19] <GreyMouser> TTLG forums are down these days, but they will probably come back up in short
[21:20] <Banshee_> TTLG forums are up. Have been since last night (worked for me at least).
[21:20] <GreyMouser> for me not yet, but good to know
[21:20] <CrayMan> I think that they were down for most of today.
[21:20] <Sneaksie> went there and for about 12 hours ther had been down
[21:20] <Sonance> Okay, for now I'll say that anyone who wants to contribute to the fictional/mission/campaign/plot elements email me so I can get an idea of who's interested. I'll then come up with some sort of plan to begin the creative process during the week.
[21:20] <Avalon> They're up, they just have problems loading due to the banner ads.
[21:21] <Banshee_> Sonance, give that email addy again.
[21:21] <Sonance>
[21:21] <Banshee_> Thanks.
[21:22] <Sonance> I'll do a mass CC email to everyone during the week to get the ball rolling.
[21:22] <Jimlad> have you got my address?
[21:22] <Sonance> Email me with a valid email address.
[21:22] <Jimlad> ok
[21:23] <Sonance> I'll probably give it until the end of next week -- to give everyone who's not here a chance to read the IRC transcript logs.
[21:23] <Sonance> That'll give everyone some time to think up some cool ideas too!
[21:23] <Banshee_> Sonance, just to let you know... I'm going away (like out of the country), leawing tomorrow, being away for a week. I'll try to type my story proposal tonight, but if I can't, I will do it monday 5th or tuesday 6th...
[21:23] <Sonance> Okay, cheers Banshee.
[21:24] <Sonance> Okay, so Banshee and Avalon are definites. Anyone else going to be emailing me?
[21:24] <CurePaz> So at the moment are we just emailing you to express an interest?  Or submitting actual mission/plot ideas?
[21:24] <Sonance> Sorry, and Jimlad and CUrePaz.
[21:25] <Jimlad> I will, even if it's just to ensure contact.
[21:25] <Sonance> Yeah, just email me to express an interest -- once I've got everyone email addresses, I'll start the main process.
[21:25] <Banshee_> The time over here being 10:30pm, I think I'd better get started, so, good night to you all.
[21:25] <Sonance> See ya later Banshee. Thanks.
[21:26] <Nanoburn> I'll be emailing, but what I'll be doign, I don't know. :)
[21:26] <Jimlad> what kind of music are you going to want for this?
[21:26] <Jimlad> I mean, style, length, etc.
[21:26] <Sonance> Don't worry, I'll come up with a clear plan so that anyone who *wants* to contribute something *can* contribute something.
[21:26] <CurePaz> Same here - it depends if I can come up with an decent ideas or not :)
[21:27] <Avalon> I think the music style would be that lovable Thief "techno". You know the stuff.
[21:27] <Sonance> Music -- well, similar to Thief, although there's always room to put your own particular style/spin on things.
[21:27] <Jimlad> right.
[21:27] <Jimlad> so you wouldn't want a full orchestral score or anything like that?
[21:27] <Sonance> I personally listen to a lot of electronica -- Autechre, Aphex Twin, Funkstorung, etc. That sort of stuff fits the Thief universe quite well!
[21:28] <Sonance> If it's a good orchestral score, that'd be cool. 
[21:28] <Jimlad> are there places I can get specific mp3s of the music?
[21:28] <Sonance> Hmm, don't know off hand. Probably best to fire up a search engine and see what you can find.
[21:28] <Jimlad> will do.
[21:28] <Sonance> Oh, are you talking about that electronica stuff?
[21:29] <Jimlad> no, the thief music.
[21:29] <Sonance> Gotcha.
[21:33] <Jimlad> what about some 20th century impressionist orchestral music? Something very stylised....
[21:34] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Lytha|BitterMooded
[21:34] *** Lytha|BitterMooded sets mode: -o Lytha|BitterMooded
[21:34] <readie> sounds good
[21:34] <Lytha|BitterMooded> just curious me...
[21:34] <Sonance> As long as it fits the mood and pace of the game, it should be cool.
[21:34] <Sneaksie> seeingif you can spice thing up here then lytha
[21:34] <Jimlad> ok, then.
[21:35] <Sonance> Jimlad, reckon you'll be up for all the music, or would you do something like create your own little team for the job?
[21:35] <Jimlad> no, I could never do anything like that... these are just ideas.
[21:36] <Jimlad> I'm an experienced pianist, and have theory qualifications, but that's it.
[21:36] <Jimlad> I haven't got the equipment, but I'm heavily into music.
[21:37] <Jimlad> Playing and composing wouldn't be too hard, it's just the recording side.
[21:37] <Jimlad> I haven't any recording equipment or an electric piano, although I do have a grand in the lounge....
[21:37] <Sonance> Hehe, I've got my own little production studio here at home.
[21:37] <Jimlad> a copy of sibelius would help.
[21:38] <Jimlad> how much does sibelius cost, perchance? Something like 300, isn't it?
[21:40] <Digital`Nightfall> here I am
[21:40] <readie> hi
[21:40] <Jimlad> who's going to do artwork? I wouldn't havethought good artists were easily available.
[21:40] <CurePaz> heya
[21:40] <Sonance> Ooh, don't know. I'm a Cubase VST man.
[21:40] <Digital`Nightfall> want good artist?
[21:40] <Digital`Nightfall> hang on
[21:40] <readie> I Can help with music. I'm doing a course in it and have music editing stuff and a keyboard on my computer.
[21:41] <Digital`Nightfall>
[21:41] <Digital`Nightfall> largest community of ameture artists anywhere online
[21:41] <Digital`Nightfall> been a member for two years
[21:41] <Jimlad> how good are you, readie?
[21:41] <Nanoburn> I already did. :)
[21:41] <Digital`Nightfall> jam packed with talent... and more then enough people who may be willing to help
[21:41] <Jimlad> are you primarily good at keyboard skills?
[21:41] <Trimfect> Hi..
[21:42] <CurePaz> hello
[21:42] <readie> I'm quite good at keyboard and at composing
[21:42] <Trimfect> Err.. What is this channel? :)
[21:42] <Jimlad> which course were you referring to?
[21:42] <readie> GCSE Music
[21:42] <readie> I'm doing it in 1 week
[21:43] <Jimlad> ok... how old are you, then?
[21:43] <readie> 16
[21:43] <Jimlad> have you ever taken associated board examinations?
[21:44] <readie> ???
[21:44] <Jimlad> sorry about the questioning, it's just that I rarely find other musicians here.
[21:44] <Jimlad> I mean, grades.
[21:45] <readie> Grade 3, thats in the UK anyway
[21:45] <Jimlad> ok
[21:46] <readie> would you consider helping with the music side of this project
[21:46] <Sonance> What sort of gear have you got Readie?
[21:46] <Jimlad> I would consider it..... I just haven't enough experience in this sort of thing.
[21:46] <Jimlad> I have ideas and I'm pretty good musically.....
[21:47] <Sonance> I've got a Korg Prophecy, Korg M1 and Roland JV-1080 synth, Akai S950 and Akai S3000 samplers, Cubase VST, etc.
[21:47] <Jimlad> bugger.
[21:47] <readie> That must of cost a bit
[21:47] <Jimlad> so you're a musician, then?
[21:47] <Sonance> Well, been doing it on and off for about 10 years.
[21:47] <Jimlad> what musical qualifications have you got?
[21:48] <Jimlad> or do you just do this for leisure?
[21:48] <Jimlad> by the way, who's CoSaS using for music?
[21:48] <readie> don't know
[21:49] <Sonance> No musical qualifications. Just a hobby. I've self-released lots of vinyl, co-producing stuff with a few mates. We had a CD out about 6 years back.
[21:49] <Jimlad> are you self-taught?
[21:50] <CurePaz> hi
[21:50] <CurePaz> wb rather
[21:50] <CurePaz> ah, wb also
[21:51] <Sonance> Yeah, I don't read or write music. Call me a sound crafter!
[21:51] <Jimlad> ok
[21:51] <Jimlad> have we any other musicians here?
[21:52] <Jimlad> no, I take it.
[21:52] <CurePaz> :)
[21:52] * CurePaz is musically inept
[21:52] <Jimlad> is there anyone specific you have in mind for the job, sonance?
[21:52] <readie> We should make a list of all to be involved with sound
[21:52] <Jimlad> Anyone who you KNOW is good?
[21:52] <Kyra> Why can't they use letters instead of notes for music ;)
[21:52] <Nanoburn> Sonance: I mailed you - get it yet?
[21:52] <Jimlad> notes are far easier to read!
[21:53] <Kyra> Nah :)
[21:53] <Jimlad> (plus you can have several at a time)
[21:53] <Jimlad> sonance? anyone?
[21:53] <Sonance> Yep, got your mail. I'll be contacting everyone later next week.
[21:54] <Sonance> I know someone called Darryl Sloan -- I think his URL is who might be up for it.
[21:54] <Kyra> What's yer addy again?
[21:54] <Jimlad> how good is he?
[21:54] <Sonance>
[21:54] <Sonance> That's just for people who are expressing an interest in the plot/fiction/missions side of things.
[21:55] <Sonance> If you want some more general info, subscribe to
[21:55] <Kyra> Thanks.
[21:55] <Jimlad> he seems to have done quite a bit of work on the computer games side of things.
[21:55] <Kyra> Am subscribed already.
[21:56] <Sonance> Yeah, mostly Amiga projects. Bless him! He's a PC convert now though.
[21:56] <Jimlad> hmm.... perhaps I should become a games musician?
[21:57] <Jimlad> let me download his music, I'll see how it is.
[21:59] <Sonance> For the fiction/missions people -- I'm setting up a mailing list at metabit. I'll confirm the address/how to subscribe stuff tomorrow.
[21:59] <Jimlad> hmm.... as far as I know, all these amateur musicians/composers tend to play music which is very modern. Is this always the case?
[22:00] <Jimlad> hang on, let me listen.
[22:00] <Sonance> A little bit, perhaps. I'll ask Darryl if he's played Thief and see if he can do something in that style.
[22:00] <Sonance> If he can, we'll get him to knock up an MP3 as a sort of test.
[22:01] <CurePaz> Darryl Sloan - sounds like a private detective :)
[22:01] <Sonance> Haha!
[22:02] <Jimlad> yeah, he seems like a musician who would work well with writing for a game like thief.
[22:02] <Sonance> He's a bit of Tangerine Dream fan, so you tend to hear that a bit in his stuff.
[22:04] <Jimlad> no, I'm a very classical guy. I practice and am trained classically.
[22:05] <Jimlad> adapting to this should be relatively easy.
[22:06] <Sonance> Try the tides, deauville and epilogue MP3 clips here --> <-- and let me know what you think of this style.
[22:06] <Jimlad> hang on.
[22:08] <Jimlad> oh, what's the url for the record of this chat?
[22:09] <GreyMouser|away> someplace at ... tomorrow.
[22:10] <Sonance> It'll probably be announced in the list.
[22:10] <GreyMouser|away> yep.