This is the first part of the discussion on that day. Again, the time is MEZ and a bit off, don't be confused by it.

[20:02] <GreyMouser> welcome all. We start that discussion now.
[20:02] <Lytha> go go go, Mauser ;)
[20:02] <GreyMouser> The topic is how we can do a third thief game
[20:02] <GreyMouser> and how we can _solve_ the problems that arise there (or if)
[20:02] <Koobze> booyah
[20:02] <Koobze> 7 pages
[20:02] *** Lytha changes topic to 'query Lytha if you want to say something but don't have a +v!'
[20:03] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Cray_Man
[20:03] <GreyMouser> I've received a lot of mails in the last two days, and am still sifting through all those pages on free engines.
[20:03] <GreyMouser> I wrote a bit of text and put it on http://www.lytha.com/taffers/
[20:03] <Koobze> hiya
[20:03] *** Lytha sets mode: +vv MaD-SaM Mokkis
[20:04] <GreyMouser> (sorry, my web design is poor) And would like to start from one of its conclusion:
[20:04] <Koobze> Wow. We're getting quite a few ppl showing up :)
[20:04] *** Lytha sets mode: +o Doomer
[20:04] <Koobze> I wonder how many ppl we'll end up having in here...
[20:04] <GreyMouser> we have plenty of participants strong in the artistic field, but darn few with programming experience.
[20:04] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Doomer
[20:05] <GreyMouser> So my conclusion was, as much as it would help us creating that special thief feeling in detail, we cannot affort to write our own engine in the current situation.
[20:05] *** Lytha sets mode: -oo Doomer Koobze
[20:05] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Koobze
[20:05] <Banshee_> Agreed.
[20:05] <GreyMouser> Getting the Thief 1/2 engine or its source doesn't look much like an option right now, either.
[20:06] <Pyro9> If we want a multiplayer, we should use the SS2 version of the dark engine
[20:06] <GreyMouser> Same problem.
[20:06] <Koobze> Hah :)
[20:06] <Nanoburn> Not an option.
[20:06] <Mokkis> Hey, anyone knows when the sunday meating starts on Finland´s time?
[20:06] <GreyMouser> Copyrights, license.
[20:06] <Pyro9> TTLG has ShockEd
[20:06] <Mokkis> I´m not good at couting those greenwitch times or such... :p
[20:06] <Banshee_> EST + lisää 7 tuntia, markus
[20:07] <GreyMouser> So, that's where we are now. Discussion begins.
[20:07] <Koobze> mokkis... sunday meeting?
[20:07] <Mokkis> Eli alkaa.....?
[20:07] <Koobze> We're having one tomorrow to? :)
[20:07] <Banshee_> En edes tiennyt että huomenna on...
[20:07] <Pyro9> well, why NOT use the Thief 2 engine as it is now?
[20:07] * Koobze sets mode -Finnish (#ThiefFMP)
[20:07] <Koobze> Puro9, how?
[20:07] <GreyMouser> thats already in planning. 
[20:07] <GreyMouser> Mission Pack.
[20:08] <Koobze> That's just an expansion.
[20:08] <Doomer> Another finlander :)
[20:08] <Nanoburn> And?
[20:08] <GreyMouser> But in a year or so, we will run into trouble.
[20:08] <Banshee_> I was, up to this point, in the understanding that the plan was for a campaign/mod for T2.
[20:08] <Mokkis> WHAT? NO WITH SS2 engine!
[20:08] <Mokkis> I think it´s easier to use same Thief II´s engine.
[20:08] <GreyMouser> DirectX isn't compatible, not even to itself. So there is a possibility Thief/SS will break with future versions of DirectX, as it did already. And we cant fix it then
[20:08] <Pyro9> What about a megamod for the Q3 engine?
[20:08] *** Lytha sets mode: -o Koobze
[20:08] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Koobze
[20:09] <Koobze> LythA :)
[20:09] <GreyMouser> Also, we expect _more_ features.. we want _more_ Thief experience. And more possibilites.
[20:09] <Lytha> ;)
[20:09] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Sonance
[20:09] <GreyMouser> Please keep in mind a FMP will take many months.
[20:09] <Koobze> Depending.
[20:09] <Koobze> :)
[20:09] <Pyro9> shouldn't we focus on just completing the thief saga, rather than re-inventing it?
[20:10] <GreyMouser> explain the difference, please
[20:10] <Koobze> It depends on whether or not the coders have a knack for the programming of the engine, and how much time will be invested.
[20:10] <Banshee_> Starting with a new engine would take potentially YEARS, Mouser...
[20:10] <Pyro9> well, we dont' need "more thief experience".  I would just like to know what happens in thief 3
[20:11] <GreyMouser> Pyro: there will be stories that cover that.
[20:11] <Nibal> that's true Banshee
[20:11] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Sneaksie
[20:11] <GreyMouser> Banshee_: not from group up new. ready-made engine.
[20:11] <Koobze> Possibly a basic, rough engine could be made quickly if we figure out problems, have examples of other engine, and get some help from pros.
[20:11] <GreyMouser> That was my point in above statement, see http://www.lytha.com/taffers/engine.phtml 
[20:11] <Mokkis> Many months? No, almost one year!
[20:12] <Pyro9> what exactly do you mean with 'more thief experience
[20:12] <Mokkis> We need to plan carefully guys!
[20:12] <Koobze> by quickly i mean 1month or so, by rough i mean pretty damn rough :)
[20:12] <Lytha> or longer.
[20:12] <GreyMouser> Koobze: from my experience, no. Not within less than two years.
[20:12] <Koobze> Hmm.
[20:12] <Sneaksie> a new engin would take to long to create, think of all the work and who here is able to do that?
[20:12] <Koobze> Well then. I had better get started, then :)
[20:12] <Nanoburn> The problem I see with most of the ready-made engines, is that you'll have to have source code to insert the audible/visual coding for the AI, right?
[20:12] <GreyMouser> depends.
[20:12] <Nanoburn> Can that be simply 'modded' in?
[20:13] <Pyro9> if we plan on taking years we might as set up a company....hmmm 
[20:13] <Banshee_> Not many available engines have the individual facets of the Thief Engine... visibility calculation, AI of that sort.
[20:13] <Sojorn> The free engines are usually open-source.
[20:13] <Nanoburn> True.
[20:13] <GreyMouser> we need to check all the available engines until we can say whether which can be used to "mod in" the special thiefy features we need.
[20:13] <Sneaksie> the free engines r also not that good
[20:13] <Dalai> receptrons etc...
[20:14] <GreyMouser> OK; any experienced programmers willing to work a few months on a new engine here please tell so now!
[20:14] <Pyro9> so, we're not going to use the dark engine?
[20:14] <Banshee_> An open-source engine would require an insane amount of work to customise for the purpose, and we do not have the programming talent for that.
[20:14] <Avalon> I think it would be easier if we just hired a lawyer and bought ourselves the durned rights to Thief.
[20:14] <Koobze> =)
[20:15] <Koobze> I'm going to work for a few months, little experience tho. :(
[20:15] <Nanoburn> Avalon: I wish. You paying for the suit that'd represent us?
[20:15] <Sneaksie> the dark engine was designed almost FOR thief, we would  have to do the same
[20:15] <Mokkis> Sneaksie is right
[20:15] <Mokkis> Source code is our only possibility :-/
[20:15] <Pyro9> if we make an engine it needs to be built around the AI
[20:16] <Lytha> yes i see also the problems when you try to customize an existing engine
[20:16] <Avalon> Yes, well, perhaps money-wise it wouldn't be easy. But it would be much easier than the things suggested here.
[20:16] <GreyMouser> Pyro:no.
[20:16] <Pyro9> Uh?
[20:16] <Banshee_> Absolutely. I don't think it is realistic to start from ground up. And I don't think it's realistic to count on getting source either.
[20:16] <Cray_Man> AI is incredinly difficult to program to act even remotely realisticaly
[20:16] <Nibal> Not to mention pathfinding....
[20:17] <Sneaksie> the motion of the AI's as well, how would we work that out?
[20:17] <Mokkis> Like I said, ThiefII´s dark engine and its source code is our only possibility
[20:17] <GreyMouser> Thats something that can be accomplished with plenty of fine-tuning.
[20:17] <Avalon> With a few modifications, without even needing the source code, you could spiff up the T2 screens (main screen, objectives, etc) to look very different and very nice. And that would also be easier.
[20:18] <Koobze> But we can't get the Source Code.
[20:18] <Pyro9> the main menu in T2 had the main menu of T1 behind it, you can see it
[20:18] <Pyro9> I would be cool if we did the same
[20:19] <Lytha> and even if we could get the source of T2, it would only mean that we had the source of the flawed renderer, too + the old dark engine, not the engine for t3 they were working on
[20:19] <MaD-SaM> didn't someone make there own menu once?
[20:19] <Pyro9> so they were working on engine for T3. 
[20:20] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Medlar
[20:20] <Mokkis> some entire LG:ser could do that dirty trick and send source code for us :p 
[20:20] <Sneaksie> i like cray's idea of the menu being all broken and sparking to show that the metal age had been kill
[20:20] <GreyMouser> Folks, one thing: we need more thought and constructive propositions here.I'm only here for two hours from the start of it.
[20:20] <Lytha> and that means:
[20:20] *** GreyMouser sets mode: -o Koobze
[20:20] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Koobze
[20:20] *** Lytha sets mode: -vvv Andy_M Avalon Banshee_
[20:20] *** Lytha sets mode: -vvv Cray_Man Dalai Doomer
[20:20] *** Lytha sets mode: -vvv MaD-SaM Medlar Mokkis
[20:21] *** Lytha sets mode: -vvv Nanoburn Nibal Pyro9
[20:21] *** Lytha sets mode: -vvv Sneaksie Sojorn Sonance
[20:21] *** Lytha sets mode: -v Sterling
[20:21] <Lytha> so. Mauser makes the debate now.
[20:21] <GreyMouser> OK, send what you want to say to Lytha (or me), we will put it on the channel then. We need results at the end of this discussions.
[20:21] <Lytha> query  questions / comments to us and we copy paste them in here.
[20:22] <Lytha> [20:16] <Pyro9>  the menu has to reflect the world, so we sould know the story before we design the menu
[20:22] <Lytha> or wait,... mauser, go. :P
[20:22] <GreyMouser> We are at the question whether we should stick with one of the Thief engines, or use a different one.
[20:22] <Koobze> Sticking with a thief engine is out, because that would just be an expansion with the same old engine.
[20:23] *** Lytha sets mode: -o Koobze
[20:23] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Koobze
[20:23] <Koobze> Why are you deopping me?
[20:23] *** Lytha sets mode: -v Koobze
[20:23] *** Koobze sets mode: -o Koobze
[20:23] <GreyMouser> please stick to a moderated debate like everyone else. We need some results, not chat - we have plenty of time for chat.
[20:23] <Lytha> nano and pyro say : dark engine
[20:24] <GreyMouser> So, your votes and reasons for it, please. Which engine should we use, and why?
[20:24] <Lytha> banshee too
[20:24] <Lytha> mad sam too
[20:24] <Lytha> makes 4
[20:24] <GreyMouser> 4 for dark engine, 1 for new/diffenent engine so far. more opinions? different propositions?
[20:24] <Lytha> cray man too
[20:24] <Lytha> 5 : 1
[20:25] <Lytha> sneaksie would prefer a new engine, but can't see how... so, with sterling
[20:25] <Lytha> 6 :1
[20:25] <Lytha> 7 :1
[20:25] <Lytha> Dalai against
[20:25] <Lytha> 7:2
[20:26] <Lytha> blargh pro 8:2
[20:26] <Lytha> sonance and avalon... 10:2
[20:26] <Lytha> mauser 11:2 ? :P
[20:26] <GreyMouser> Any more votes?
[20:26] <Lytha> I would definitely prefer a new renderer at last... .:(
[20:27] <GreyMouser> So thats 11:3 then, I guess.
[20:27] <Lytha> okay. 
[20:27] <Lytha> seems like we vote pro dark engine
[20:27] <Lytha> next point .. I got questions.
[20:27] <Lytha> guys, re-query the questions to me plz
[20:28] <Lytha> nano would also like a new renderer.
[20:28] <Lytha> 10:4 then, I guess. ;)
[20:28] <Lytha> [20:23] <Sneaksie> how do we customise the dark engine so as to make it better?
[20:28] <Lytha> [20:20] <Koobze> Question: How do we use the dark engine then?
[20:28] <Lytha> [20:23] <Koobze> i want a new renderer
[20:29] <Lytha> makes ... err... 
[20:29] <Lytha> who is pro a new renderer?
[20:29] <GreyMouser> close that vote, please...
[20:29] <Lytha> [20:23] <Koobze> and want to know how we would make a new thief game without changing anything about the thief engine...
[20:29] <Lytha> okay.
[20:29] <GreyMouser> Proposals, please.
[20:30] <Lytha> [20:23] <Andy_M> If a different engine were used, in what ways would we make it better than the Thief 2 engine?  Would the, probably small, gameplay related additions make up for the systems we would not be able to recreate to the same quality? (possibly AI, physics, objects, sound propagation)
[20:31] <Lytha> okay...
[20:31] *** Lytha sets mode: +vvv Andy_M Avalon Banshee_
[20:31] *** Lytha sets mode: +vvv Blargh Cray_Man Dalai
[20:31] *** GreyMouser sets mode: +vvv Sojorn Sonance Sterling
[20:31] *** GreyMouser sets mode: +vvv Medlar Mokkis Nanoburn
[20:31] *** Lytha sets mode: +vvv Nibal Pyro9 Sneaksie
[20:31] *** Lytha sets mode: +vvv Doomer Koobze MaD-SaM
[20:31] <GreyMouser> Proposals, please.
[20:31] <Lytha> so...
[20:31] <MaD-SaM> its a bit like the matrix when neo cant talk
[20:31] <Pyro9> testing, testing, 1 2 3
[20:31] <Lytha> we agreed on  using the old dark engine, 
[20:32] <GreyMouser> at least the majority voted for that
[20:32] <Pyro9>  We HAVE to get the story straight from ex-LGers, or else it just wouldn't be right.
[20:32] <Lytha> several wanted a new renderer though.
[20:32] <Dalai> Is this chat focused to the last question?
[20:32] <GreyMouser> yep. Im afraid we have not the resources to do it without the majority here.
[20:32] <Lytha> my question is now: how do we get the dark engine and it's source mainly, so that we can work with it??
[20:32] <Koobze> We can't.
[20:33] <GreyMouser> a new renderer cannot be done without a new engine. Or the rights and source code of Thief.
[20:33] <Koobze> That's the problem, all we could possibly do is make levels for thief.
[20:33] <Lytha> ic
[20:33] <Dalai> If we can't get the source, we need to find out what we can do with the dark engine as it is. What mods/hacks can be applied to it to make it better.
[20:33] <Sneaksie> surly there is some legal scam that could be pulled to get it, who owns the rights to it?
[20:33] <GreyMouser> Same from my point of view. We can make missions, good missions. But not more.
[20:33] <Pyro9> how about a special version of the thiefloader
[20:33] <Avalon> Make levels, briefings, new end/success movie, new screens... Everything but the engine, virtually, can be modified.
[20:33] <GreyMouser> Dalai: *that* would create a lot of legal problems, apart from it being plenty of work.
[20:34] <Dalai> What's the latest on ShockEd? Using that would offer new features (e.g. multiplayer).
[20:34] <Sterling> mouser: and we can coordinate to do a large campaign with an ongoing plot (20+ missions?)
[20:34] <Koobze> We we've eliminated any new features, or whatever. Now, the job is left for just story line, art, briefings, and level makers.
[20:34] <GreyMouser> Where is Digital'Nightfall?
[20:34] <Lytha> in #thief...
[20:35] <Pyro9> YES! Just like many japanese games now, they release a new chapter every few months and the fans will have an effect on the story.  How about that!
[20:35] <Sterling> hmm
[20:35] <Sterling> a pack of 3-5 missions every few months, carryig on the plot?
[20:35] <Pyro9> yep
[20:36] <Pyro9> it would be cool, if we could pull it off
[20:36] <Medlar> That sounds feasible
[20:36] <Sneaksie> how would that be intergrated into the game from a technical point of view
[20:36] <Sterling> we dropped down to pretty graassroot level from the original grandiose ideas about new thief, didin't we? :p ;)
[20:36] <Nanoburn> Sterling - no coders. :(
[20:36] <Sterling> yeah :/
[20:36] <Cray_Man> no code
[20:37] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Dalai_
[20:37] *** Dalai_ is now known as Dalai
[20:37] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Jimlad
[20:38] <Pyro9> i like my idea, but if not that I prefere we use the real story that LG had for thief 3
[20:38] <Lytha> yes, we dropped down, Sterling.
[20:38] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Koobze
[20:38] <GreyMouser> Thats democracy for you
[20:38] <Lytha> wb
[20:38] <Koobze> those who still want to make a new engine, go to #ThiefCoders
[20:39] <Sterling> heh :)
[20:39] <Pyro9> hehe
[20:39] <Cray_Man> I don't think LGS really had a firm story, just rough ideas.
[20:39] <Dalai> So are we just talking a set of missions now?
[20:39] <Sterling> seems so
[20:39] <Sterling> with an ongoing plot of coures
[20:39] <Sterling> hmm
[20:39] <GreyMouser> in here, looks like it. this is a voluntary thing, so we need to go with the majority.
[20:39] <Sterling> how large areas does dromed 2 support?
[20:40] <Banshee_> An ongoing plot, as I see it, could not work dramatically as well as one entity.
[20:40] <Sterling> i mean is a large area of a city possible?
[20:40] <Nanoburn> I think so... look at Ambush.
[20:40] <Sterling> hmm. yeah. but maybe a few times bigger than ambush
[20:40] <Pyro9> we wouldn't do 1 mission at a time with the plot we would do it in how many it takes
[20:41] <Sterling> just thought of a mission that would start just with wandering around and after hearing conversations and stuff you'd get new objectives
[20:41] *** Dalai_ is now known as Dalai
[20:41] <Sterling> and after completing certain objectives you'd get to next mission
[20:41] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Dalai
[20:42] <Pyro9> no, lets not mess around with a good anymore than we have to, or should
[20:42] <Sterling> casgin+masks is an example of an objective that does not need to be fulfilled
[20:42] *** Lytha sets mode: -m
[20:42] <Avalon> We call those "optional" objectives.
[20:42] <Sneaksie> is there any hope for a new type of tool like thiefloader or dromed that would be easier to use to create the levels in
[20:42] <Sterling> in the first part i mean
[20:42] <Dalai> So are we just talking a set of missions now?
[20:43] *** Lytha changes topic to 'there is no reason not to use the TEG forum of the TTLG forums for further plans on additional missionpacks'
[20:43] <GreyMouser> yes. Maybe a few extensions a la thief loader.
[20:43] <Jimlad> hmm
[20:43] <GreyMouser> but everything else would need a new/different engine, which the majority here voted against.
[20:43] <Avalon> If we're talking a set of missions, then we have to be a bit more organized. We can'
[20:44] *** MaD-SaM is now known as MaD|AWAY
[20:44] <Avalon> can't be like the 'Rebel' group on the TEG forum.
[20:44] <Banshee_> Agreed, Avalon.
[20:44] *** Lytha sets mode: +o Kyra
[20:44] <Lytha> :)
[20:44] <Kyra> Greets, all.
[20:45] <Pyro9> screw the dark engine, screw the whole "3D" thing, lets up the commander keen engine!
[20:45] *** Lytha sets mode: +ooo Doomer Mokkis Pyro9
[20:45] <Sterling> yeah, a set of missions should have all sorts of little bits and stuff that refer to the other missions
[20:45] *** Lytha sets mode: +ooo Andy_M Avalon Banshee_
[20:45] *** Lytha sets mode: +ooo Cray_Man Dalai Jimlad
[20:45] <Sonance> There's an oppurtinity to do a sort of "two stories for the price of one". Have two timelines running within the game, one carrying on from where T2 left off and another going back to tell the story of Garrett's time as an acolyte with the Keepers. This gives us a chance to do some unique missions from a Keeper perspective. Then, as the two timelines continues, we discover that events in one are having an effect on events in another.
[20:45] * Jimlad coughs
[20:45] *** Lytha sets mode: +ooo MaD|AWAY Medlar Nanoburn
[20:45] *** Lytha sets mode: +ooo Nibal Sneaksie Sojorn
[20:45] *** Lytha sets mode: +oo Sonance Sterling
[20:45] <Jimlad> aren't you worried about us all banning each other?
[20:45] <GreyMouser> well...
[20:45] <Sterling> hehe
[20:46] <Lytha> heh
[20:46] * Sterling bans Jimlad
[20:46] <Lytha> no, not really, Jimlad
[20:46] <Jimlad> oh, so you trust us I see.....
[20:46] <Sonance> In other words, have the one main "contemporary" plot and some missions that are told as a sort of "flashback".
[20:46] <Jimlad> fair enough, just don't be surprised if there's a horrible uprising.
[20:46] <Pyro9> THE greatest thing of all time would be able to explore the Keepers whatever-they-call-it.  After that cutscene in thief 2 I've been obsessed with it
[20:46] <GreyMouser> I am a programmer and software project manager. I am doing software stuff. Making mission packs is not my thing, so I can'T contribute any further... sorry... I go back to listening.
[20:46] <Sonance> The flashback events would gradually reveal "what's going on" in the contemporary plot.
[20:47] <Jimlad> what of cutscenes?
[20:47] <Banshee_> Sorry, mouser. It would have been fun, but just not feasible with our resources, I think.
[20:47] * Dalai agrees with GreyMouser, he was here for the programming
[20:47] <Lytha> and well... I am not really interested in the idea of having only mission packs based on the same old engine and renderer... so I am back in listening mode too
[20:47] <Lytha> Programmers and Coders plz to #ThiefCoders
[20:48] <Jimlad> surely the engine could be updated?
[20:48] <GreyMouser> no
[20:48] <Lytha> (or people who would like a new engine)
[20:48] <Jimlad> why is this
[20:48] <GreyMouser> not without the source, and the rights to it.
[20:48] <Jimlad> oh, ok.
[20:48] <GreyMouser> why: how?
[20:48] <Banshee_> Jimlad: if you have any ideas how to do that, speak up. 
[20:48] * Jimlad keeps quiet
[20:48] <Jimlad> I'm not up to date on the situation here.
[20:49] <Sonance> What's going on here then? I thought people voted in favour of using the Dark Engine. Are we all going to agree to use it, or are we splitting up into different projects? Personally, I just want to contribute to *one* project.
[20:49] *** Lytha sets mode: +oo CrayMan Nae
[20:49] <Jimlad> either someone fills me in on it, or they tell me where to go to find out.
[20:49] <Banshee_> Agreed, Sonance.
[20:49] <Jimlad> please, could you tell me the result of the vote.
[20:50] <Pyro9> are we getting anywhere with this?
[20:50] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Lytha
[20:50] <Jimlad> the figures.
[20:50] *** Lytha sets mode: -o Lytha
[20:50] *** MaD|AWAY is now known as MaD-SaM
[20:50] <Banshee_> 10-4 against a new engine, JL.
[20:50] <Jimlad> ok, thanks.
[20:50] <Sonance> Seeing as I'm coming at this from a concept/scriptwriting/music production angle, I'd rather focus on the largest project with the best chance of succeeding. I voted for the Dark Engine because I thought that would be quickest to work with -- and hey, it's custom built for Thief's gameplay. If the majority had decided to go with another engine (Q3, Unreal) or custom built, I'd still want to contribute to that.
[20:51] *** MaD-SaM is now known as Guest5641
[20:51] *** Guest5641 is now known as MaD-SaM
[20:51] <Jimlad> how would it be possible to get hold of the source code for the dark engine (if at all)?
[20:51] <Nanoburn> The problem with using a customized/new/ready-made engine lies in adding support for a lot of features native to Thief's 'Dark engine', like visual and auditory cues for the AI.
[20:51] <Avalon> We'd need to buy the rights. Which could cost a lot.
[20:52] <Jimlad> not practical.
[20:52] <CrayMan> We still need direction for this 'missiom pack' otherwise we might as well all go and make our own dromed missioms.
[20:52] <MaD-SaM> i was thinking that crayman
[20:52] <Nanoburn> LGS said it was about the Keepers. We'll start there.
[20:52] <Banshee_> Yes, Cray.
[20:52] <Jimlad> I would tend to agree.
[20:53] <Sonance> Well, I think a "mission pack" would be best. We can get a mission pack out in less than 12 months. If we went down the "build our own engine" route, we'll probably still be working on it in 24 months (if at all).
[20:53] <Sneaksie> so what about the keepers? how r we going to invole them?
[20:53] <Pyro9> if we make thief 3, we have to use the story from LG
[20:53] <Sonance> Well, I think half the missions should feature a younger Garrett as a Keeper acolyte. 
[20:54] <Mokkis> We need to ask from Randy S
[20:54] <Mokkis> If he want´s to help
[20:54] <Nanoburn> I like the idea to split the missions between past and present.
[20:54] <Sterling> yeah
[20:54] <MaD-SaM> i don't
[20:54] <Avalon> I don't think we should all just sit here and think of a plot. We need to go the professional route, and pick out a team for that.
[20:54] <Jimlad> so this is in effect to be a prequel, as in redalert, and developing past the first two games into a sequel?
[20:54] <Banshee_> The LGS Thief story is problematic. It probably is, at this stage, just a rough draft. And, there may be copyright problems with that as well.
[20:55] <Sneaksie> but who? does anybody have any good plots and ideas
[20:55] <Nanoburn> We're not using the LGS story - we don't have it.
[20:55] <Nanoburn> We're inventing our own, given what they told us.
[20:55] <Pyro9> we can get it
[20:55] <Sonance> I think all this hinges on whether or not we get permission from LG (or the copyright holders) to use their own ideas for T3.
[20:55] <Pyro9> if not, it shouldn't be thief 3.  
[20:56] <Nanoburn> They said they were making an 'open-city' design... sound like Garrett the kid picking pockets to you?
[20:56] <Banshee_> Well, I was thinking about a story last night, based on the information that we have now about what LGS planned.
[20:56] <Sonance> I think a prequel might save a lot of hassle. And it can also cover us possibly having to get someone else to provide Garrett's voice.
[20:56] <Pyro9> we should try to get stephen russel 
[20:56] <Avalon> This is what I've been doing for the FMs I've been making... just simply skipping the LG plot. Just include the fact that it happened, with a few details, but try to avoid it as much as possible.
[20:57] <Sonance> I'm going to email him and see if he's interested, what his fee will be, etc.
[20:57] <Sonance> We could even have this set of missions featuring an anonymous keeper. Within the last few missions, he decides to go his own way and give himself a new persona -- Garrett.
[20:58] <MaD-SaM> I'd rather go about a campaigne on my own with friends rather than listen to the arguments
[21:00] <Sonance> So, are options -- 1) prequel, 2) sequel or 3) sequel with "flashback" sequences/missions to Garrett's past.
[21:00] <Jimlad> heck, we could go for something entirely different.
[21:00] <Jimlad> something not related in any way.