Thief: The Fan Made Project  
One hour before the meeting itself took place. The time is MEZ and a bit off, so don't let it confuse you.
[19:10] *** Lytha|Framed is now known as Lytha
[19:16] <GreyMouser> Hi. I just wanted to throw around my thoughts so far... I put a few pages on Lythas site, under
[19:16] <GreyMouser> its not beautiful, but I hope its a start.
[19:17] <GreyMouser> now, I go have a shower, and then I'll try to review a few more engine until the meeting takes place...
[19:17] <Koobze> ok
[19:17] <Koobze> review a few more engines?
[19:17] <Koobze> So we might still use an already-made one/
[19:17] <Koobze> ?
[19:18] <GreyMouser> indeed. see conclusion on the "engine" page
[19:20] <Koobze> hmm.
[19:20] <Koobze> Quake 3 would be a bitch to mod, but could probably be done.
[19:20] <Koobze> Or any quakes.
[19:20] <Koobze> hmm. quake 2 could be good tho.
[19:21] <GreyMouser> yep. both are stable and customizable engines, with plenty of tools available
[19:21] <GreyMouser> now excuse me, I'll be back in a few minutes
[19:21] <Koobze> =)
[19:21] <Koobze> lo
[19:23] <Nanoburn> I would imagine, from my (very) limited experience that modding any engine would be difficult, the sound and vision qualities of the Dark Engine would have to be replicated for interaction with the AI, right?
[19:23] <Koobze> Yeah.
[19:23] <Koobze> That's the main point again the mod option.
[19:24] <Koobze> I'm still leaning towards making our own engine, and will be trying my damnedest to do so.
[19:24] <Koobze> Realistically tho, the chance that I can come up with something usable and of a thiefy quality within a month or 2 months is very slim without much help.
[19:24] <Nanoburn> I wish I could help, but I'm no psychocoder. (someday, maybe.)
[19:24] <Koobze> :)
[19:25] <Nanoburn> Anyone looked into the cost to license Quake 3?
[19:25] <Nanoburn> I figure there's going to be one.
[19:26] <Nanoburn> Or are we just planning a TC?
[19:26] <Koobze> Probably, which is why quake2 would be best
[19:26] <Koobze> tc wouldn't work, due to the sound and shadows, etc...
[19:26] <Nanoburn> Quake 2 source has been freed, right?
[19:26] <Koobze> I think so.
[19:26] <Nanoburn> Hmmm.
[19:26] <Koobze> It's a bitch tho, and really complicated, imho.
[19:27] <Nanoburn> I've peeked at it. Uses DLL architecture.
[19:27] <Nanoburn> If we did use it, it'd definitely require some -*heavy*- modification. The Thief 2 engine was superior in most (all?) repsects to that archaic thing. :(
[19:28] <Nanoburn> Of course, if we DO use it, it does have at least one -major- advantage over the Dark Engine... Multiplayer capability is native.
[19:29] <Avalon> If I may input an oppinion, using a new engine would be almost impossible, if you want to keep the Thiefy Goodness (tm). And, considering how long it would take to even modify an existing one, then throw on the fact that the level designers have to learn the editor... That would take a year just to get started.
[19:29] * Nanoburn always did want to loot Bafford's with a friend. ;)
[19:29] <Koobze> Not if we include support for thief missions.
[19:29] <Koobze> ie, using tels' knowledge.
[19:29] <Koobze> We can't use the thief engine, because the likelihood of our getting the source is nil.
[19:30] <Koobze> So we're left with either modifying an existing engine, or creating one from scratch.
[19:30] <Dalai> Quake 2 source isn't out.
[19:30] *** Pyro_far_away is now known as Pyro9
[19:30] <Nanoburn> I'd -love- to see a new engine built for the project, but I can't contribute to one, so my opinion is pretty nil-value on that topic.
[19:30] <Nanoburn> Oi. That means Quake1.
[19:30] <Avalon> The last thing I want is to have to learn something similar to his CoW stuff. I think, if we want to make something that will come out this decade, we'll have to find better options.
[19:30] <Dalai> CoW?
[19:31] <Koobze> Well, if tels has any c++ experience, he could help greatly.
[19:31] <Avalon> Creator of Worlds, using Pearl coding. Tels uses a lot of the stuff.
[19:31] <Koobze> if not, we'd have to make an editor similar to dromed.
[19:32] <Dalai> its not going to be easy to do everything from scratch like that
[19:33] <Koobze> I know.
[19:33] <Koobze> That's the major downside to making our own.
[19:33] <Koobze> We'll see... if we get some more ppl, I might be able to do something with them
[19:33] <Nanoburn> You guys could always head over to the 3d engines collection and look through a few. The specs didn't mean anything to me (mostly) when I passed it on.
[19:33] <Koobze> There's always the choice to make t:tfmp 3rd person, or somewhat isometric.
[19:33] <Dalai> Koobze, you ever looking into the Genesis3d engine?
[19:33] <Dalai> looked
[19:34] <Koobze> Ugh.
[19:34] <Koobze> I'm waiting to see if i really have to :)
[19:34] <Dalai> I've played around with it
[19:34] * Koobze doesn't like the idea of going through somebody else's code to see what he could do.
[19:34] <Koobze> The only reason i'd look through it is to put stuff in my own engine :)
[19:34] <Koobze> Which isn't a bad idea.
[19:34] <Koobze> We'll see, we'll see.
[19:34] <Koobze> What did you think of it?
[19:35] <Dalai> Well, I didn't study it extensively, but it seems pretty good
[19:35] <Dalai> there's plenty of tutorials on it too
[19:35] <Dalai> I think we should consider it anyway
[19:36] <Dalai> although, the only thing I've seen done using that engine is AIWars and that sucks.
[19:36] <Dalai> Hmmm. I'm not sure if it has provision for checking the amount of light on any given point. Which we would need.
[19:36] <Koobze> Heh.
[19:36] <Koobze> Is genesis in OpenGL
[19:36] <Koobze> ?
[19:37] <Dalai> Direct3D I think.
[19:37] <Dalai> Or maybe it can do both
[19:37] <Koobze> Ugh
[19:37] <Koobze> we've decided to go gl.
[19:37] <Nanoburn> I think it supports OpenGL native... Lemme see if I can find the review I saw last night.
[19:37] <Dalai> I think it can do more than one
[19:37] <Dalai> you've decided to go gl :P
[19:37] <Koobze> If you guys can find any gl-engines, please post links here or something :)
[19:37] <Koobze> Not, me, we.
[19:37] <Koobze> It was a major discussion yesterday or so.
[19:38] <Dalai> oh okay.
[19:38] <Dalai> :)
[19:38] <Koobze> We all (aside from som) realized that linux, etc... support is a must.
[19:38] <Koobze> som+e
[19:38] <Dalai> what?
[19:38] <Koobze> and that gl is easier.
[19:38] <Dalai> Linux support? why?
[19:38] <Avalon> Why is it that these major discussions usually involve 2-5 people? Ah, well.
[19:38] <Koobze> Heh.
[19:38] <Koobze> The major one had 21 ppl in this channel :)
[19:38] <Dalai> Direct3D is far more compatible though.
[19:39] <Koobze> Not on other platforms dalai.
[19:39] <Nanoburn> Got it. Link:
[19:39] <Koobze> And compatible with what?
[19:39] <Dalai> koobze, but don't the other platforms make up less than 1% or something?
[19:39] <Nanoburn> Does not support OpenGL, guys. No Genesis.
[19:39] <Avalon> And then why aren't these things ever told to us, the guys who are going to be designing the actual levels on whatever engine is used? Oh well, such is the world.
[19:40] <Koobze> heh.
[19:40] <Dalai> I thought the meeting was for deciding things like that... but I guess you can't keep excited taffers from talking. :)
[19:40] <Koobze> Whatever we do, we've been planning to include dromed support.
[19:40] <Koobze> We may still change plans.
[19:40] <Koobze> I for one lean towards gl, because it is way easier to use and cross platform, and even thief3 was using it.
[19:40] <Nanoburn> Before we worry about including Dromed, hadn't we best find a suitable engine we can modify? (Unless any of you has a spare 'Dark Engine Source Code' laying around.)
[19:41] * Dalai checks My Documents
[19:41] <Avalon> Dromed would be near impossible if you change engines. It doesn't support completely rounded walls (if you pick/create an engine which does), and it supports very little in many other aspects of 3d gaming.
[19:41] <Dalai> nope.
[19:41] * Nanoburn laughs.
[19:41] <Koobze> Dromed just makes the levels.
[19:41] <Nanoburn> I know what it does.
[19:41] <Koobze> We could read them, with tels' help.
[19:42] <Nanoburn> Hmm.
[19:42] <Avalon> Reading them isn't the problem. It would be the fact that we'd be using Thief 1/2 technology (err, lack there of) on a much more advanced engine. It would look quite outdated.
[19:42] <Koobze> How would we be doing that?
[19:43] <Koobze> We'd be using the same polygon complexity, but that's about it...
[19:43] <Koobze> We could have our own textures, etc...
[19:43] <Nanoburn> That depends, Avalon - at the moment, the only -free- Quake (the one GreyMouser mentions as the best commercial engine) is Quake -1-... That's not as advanced as the Dark Engine.
[19:43] <Koobze> *sigh* It all remains to be seen.
[19:43] <Avalon> Dromed itself cannot make a round wall (again, should you do that). You'd need to code Dromed quite a bit. Dromed uses far different ways of creating things, which wouldn't look right in other engines.
[19:44] <GreyMouser> back.
[19:44] <Nanoburn> GreyMouser: Has id open-sourced Quake 2?
[19:45] * Koobze thinks mauser is reading up what he's missed :)
[19:46] <Nanoburn> Probably... That engine collection was -way- massive. No way I could have read it all at work. :(
[19:47] <GreyMouser> re
[19:47] <GreyMouser> I'd like to put some replies to what you said in the minutes I was away here... OK?
[19:48] * Dalai listens
[19:48] <GreyMouser> [19:29] <Avalon> If I may input an oppinion, using a new engine would be almost impossible, if you want to keep the Thiefy Goodness (tm). And, considering how long it would take to even modify an existing one, then throw on the fact that the level designers have to learn the editor... That would take a year just to get started.
[19:48] <GreyMouser> Reply:
[19:48] <GreyMouser> We will need at least two years or longer if we build our own, given the minimal amount of (programmmers*programming_experience).
[19:48] <GreyMouser> Keeping the Thiefy Goodness(TM) may also be achieved by plenty of fine-tuning
[19:48] <GreyMouser> for which we have the resources.
[19:48] <GreyMouser> The level designers would have to learn the editor in any case, unless we
[19:48] <GreyMouser> find some way of using _and_ _extending_ dromed.
[19:48] <GreyMouser> [End of this Reply]
[19:48] <GreyMouser> next or discussion?
[19:49] <Dalai> Well, I agree with you.
[19:49] <Nanoburn> Has anyone considered the tribes 2 engine that is to be released by Sierra soon?
[19:49] <Nanoburn> I found a site that -claims- Sierra will license it for free, charge 50% of profits.
[19:50] <GreyMouser> Nanoburn: too limited and unstable, sorry. May look into it, though.
[19:50] <Nanoburn> Since we wouldn't have profits....
[19:50] * Nanoburn nods.
[19:50] <Koobze> Yeah. I realize it may be easier to mod an existing engine... but I'd still at least like to *try* to make a custom engine.
[19:50] <Koobze> Ok... 1 more page and my essay is done...
[19:50] * Koobze goes into crunch mode :)
[19:51] <GreyMouser> :) I understand your motivation very well, Koobze. I'd like it better, too. But as a project coordinator, I have to pick a way that has at least a certain probability of success...
[19:51] <Avalon> I believe it took LGS almost 4-6 months to make the Dark Engine. And they had a group of guys/gals who worked 20 hour days sometimes. We, unfortunately, have about 20 people that would only have an hour or so a day to even touch the thing.
[19:51] <GreyMouser> and most of them don't know how to use a compiler...
[19:52] <Nanoburn> Mouser - on the site you mention the Quake 3 engine... Have you checked licensing costs on it yet?
[19:52] <GreyMouser> and they'd be needed to coordinated globally, too. Which results in much coordination loss. :7
[19:52] <GreyMouser> Not yet. But I will, if nobody else does.
[19:52] <GreyMouser> Ah, next reply:
[19:53] <GreyMouser> Q2/Q3 license:
[19:53] <GreyMouser> if we make it a free mod, one would have to own/buy a Q2/Q3. Q2 is very cheap those days; q3 will go down in price soon. If we make a commercial version,
[19:53] <GreyMouser> Q3 will be among the more affordable engines, I guess.
[19:53] <Koobze> Not commercial.
[19:53] * Lytha groans and stretches a bit
[19:53] <Koobze> We don't wanna charge any money...
[19:53] <GreyMouser> since it is already a base engine and has been licensed several times... the really new ones cost more AFAIK.
[19:53] <Lytha> hello :)
[19:53] <Dalai> You talking about modding q3? or buying the actualy engine?
[19:53] <GreyMouser> hello Lytha :)
[19:54] <GreyMouser> modding then, if non-commercial.
[19:54] <GreyMouser> q2 may work, too.
[19:54] <Koobze> If we do, we might run into difficulties with eidos.
[19:54] <GreyMouser> and I still need to check the non-commercial/free engines.
[19:54] <Dalai> modding limits what you can do, because you don't have the source to all the parts
[19:54] * Nanoburn nodnods.
[19:54] <GreyMouser> Koobze: what could they do? probit sales of Q3 to thief fans?
[19:54] <Dalai> for example, simply displaying pictures on the screen with the q2 engine is ridiculously hard as a mod.
[19:55] <Nanoburn> Sue for copyright infringement? (I is no lawyer, either, but the thought occurs)
[19:55] <Koobze> Almost done the essay...
[19:55] <Koobze> heya
[19:55] <Dalai> hey banshee
[19:55] <Banshee_> Evening, everyone.
[19:55] <Nanoburn> Hey.
[19:55] <Lytha> evening :)
[19:55] <GreyMouser> right. But if you know a better way to get started, tell us - our main resource problem lies with the programmers, which we need to build the engine and editor/converter, before the others can get started.
[19:55] <GreyMouser> Evening, Banshee_
[19:56] <GreyMouser> Nanoburn: which copyright? 
[19:56] *** Lytha sets mode: +vvv Avalon Banshee_ Dalai
[19:56] *** Lytha sets mode: +vvv Koobze Nanoburn Pyro9
[19:56] *** Lytha sets mode: +vv Sojorn Sterling
[19:56] <Lytha> Koobze, don't de-voice yourself. you will need the + soon :)
[19:56] <Dalai> :) not an all op day today then
[19:56] <GreyMouser> To the idea? Thats a) hilarious, b) they needed to sue some commercial software as well, c) they can't.
[19:56] <GreyMouser> Ah, welcome all.
[19:57] <Nanoburn> Hmm.
[19:57] <Lytha> :)
[19:58] <Dalai> If we build a game set in the thief world, I'm sure we can sued.
[19:58] <Dalai> get sued
[19:58] <GreyMouser> They have of course rights to the Trademark, the complete art and software of T1 and T2, but not more.
[19:58] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Nibal
[19:58] <Koobze> hiya
[19:58] <Nibal> hey
[19:58] <Lytha> hey :)
[19:58] <Koobze> well... ppl are showing up :)
[19:58] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Koobze
[19:58] <Koobze> :)
[19:58] <Lytha> heh ;)
[19:58] <Dalai> nice trick
[19:58] <GreyMouser> Dalai: on what grounds? I see a remote problem there, but that depends.. especially if it is non-commercial, what losses could they claim=
[19:58] <Koobze> too many +'s now, so i stick with the small group.
[19:58] <Pyro9> don't do what danny don't does do
[19:58] <Nanoburn> Right. So as long as we do everything from scratch, and don't call it 'Thief', we're fine?
[19:59] <GreyMouser> I think so, but we need somebody with more specialized knowledge to counter-check that.
[19:59] <Dalai> GreyMouser, surely its blatant theft. Its like buying a novel, rewriting it slightly and selling it off as your own work.
[19:59] <Avalon> Garrett is part of copyright, too, I believe. We could rename him Carrot, though.
[19:59] <GreyMouser> That happens all the time, without much fuzz
[19:59] <Dalai> Ah well, I suppose if we rename everything that's trademarked...
[20:00] <GreyMouser> UT is a comic-book version of Q3... etc etc... I dont have to name it....
[20:00] <Pyro9> carrot...hmm
[20:00] <GreyMouser> Gerrit?
[20:00] <Lytha> Garret :P
[20:00] <Sojorn> What? You mean our game can't have any characters named Garrett?
[20:00] <Pyro9> what Q3 is UT bitch
[20:00] <GreyMouser> ? whatever.
[20:01] <Dalai> I like Lytha's idea
[20:01] * Pyro9 pisses on a Q3A box
[20:01] <Pyro9> die bitch
[20:01] *** GreyMouser sets mode: -v Pyro9
[20:01] <GreyMouser> thats not the topic. calm down.
[20:01] <Pyro9> like i care
[20:01] <Banshee_> Wait a minute. Has the FM scene legal status changed somehow overnight now that the rights have changed ownership?
[20:01] *** Retrieving #ThiefFMP info...
[20:01] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Nanoburn
[20:01] *** GreyMouser sets mode: +m
[20:01] *** GreyMouser sets mode: +v Pyro9
[20:01] <GreyMouser> ah.... stop...
[20:02] <Lytha> if you don't have a +v , but want to say something, query me
[20:02] *** Lytha sets mode: +v Andy_M